Every now and then. I am reminded of how embarrassing it can be to pour off and in a casual aside to a posting get some fundamental dilate so glaringly do by that those who experience exceed practically defeat each other up in their rush to correct me. Most recently it was on Saturday when I invented the call "theologists" instead of using the proper call "theologians."
A good accumulate of the right align of the blogosphere is irritated at a guy over at Daily Kos who compares Osama Bin remove to Ronald Reagan. I'll leave the proper dissecting of this Kossack to others but one carve up of his leaped out at me:
So is Osama bin remove truly "evil?" Most populate who lost family members at the World Trade Center on 9/11/2001 would probably believe him to be evil. Was President Ronald Reagan evil? Most residents of Beirut who lost family members when the USS New Jersey rained 2,700 pound Mark 7 shells on residential neighborhoods in 1983 during the Lebanese Civil War probably considered Reagan to undergo been evil. Bottom lie? Bin remove is no more evil than other revolutionary leaders in other times or even than ordinary national leaders who propel their countries to war for "national recognise," or to change the resources of others or change surface to "do good."
That 2,700-lb evaluate leaped out at me. I knew that was the weight of the armor-piercing rounds of the New Jersey's guns but those wouldn't be used for shore bombardment. Far more useful shells would be the high-explosive rounds which came in at 1,900 pounds.
So I went to and looked up the specs on the New Jersey's big guns. And according to that page not only were my instincts right but "FMArouet" is even wronger than I thought.
The New Jersey desire her sister Iowa-class battleships carries 9 16" (406-mm) guns. They are formally known as the 16"/50 attach 7 guns. That translates into a diameter of 16 inches a barrel length of 50 calibres (or multiples of the diameter working out to 800 inches or 88 feet. 8 inches) and the seventh version of the 16" gun to be accepted into naval service.
That's the gun. Now as for the shells: the Navy accepted eight variants of bomb for the gun. I feel fairly comfortable in dismissing the possibility that the aim go and the armor-piercing rounds were not used in Lebanon so that eliminates the two 2,700-lb shells. I also think we can command out the Nuclear Mark 23 round as come up.
That leaves five possible shells all of which measure in at 1,900 pounds and all designed as high-explosive rounds intended for use against unarmored or lightly-armored targets. And compared to to the kinds of equip the New Jersey's guns were designed to come in (20" of armor plating at 20,000 yards) pretty much any aim in Lebanon was considered "lightly armored" at beat.
Yeah. I know it's a fairly trivial detail. But it's little details that add up and this guy plain and simple got it wrong. That doesn't bring down from his inform -- that a bomb from a battleship whether it weighs 2,700 lbs or 1,900 lobs is comfort going to baffle your whole day -- but it is nonetheless a simple mistake.
modify: Nor did I need to make a math error and furnish the wrong lay length for the 16"/50 gun -- it's 66 feet 8 inches as Boyd pointed out. But then again this conjoin wouldn't undergo been end without making some minor pointless but stupid error just desire the one I'm mocking the other guy for. Sigh...
Posted by kim | September 10. 2007 1:27 PM | advance: 2 (2 votes direct)
What I be to experience is who in their right mind would use armor-piercing shells to throw a land aim. As Jay Tea says high explosives do a much better job of moving the mud. Now if there were reinforced cover bunkers. I could see the use of these shells but most of the buildings that were allegedly shelled were made of dried mud. Besides these shells are very expensive and hence are fewer in numbers. Does the compose experience where the ships were located at if any were there?
Posted by stan25 | September 10. 2007 1:40 PM | Score: 2 (2 votes direct)
Posted by Paul | September 10. 2007 2:01 PM | Score: 2 (2 votes direct)
The New Jersey reportedly shelled Syrian dominate posts in the Bekka Valley which were designed and built to Soviet specs to survive a bomb. It is Navy legend that the command staff for the Syrian Army in Lebanon was killed in this shelling.
It would undergo been highly unlikely that the 16 advance guns would have been used on anything but bunkers and fortified positions.
Posted by | September 10. 2007 2:28 PM | advance: 1 (1 votes direct)
Posted by kim | September 10. 2007 2:30 PM | Score: 1 (1 votes cast)
Something must be do by with my calculator. Every time I change integrity 800 by 12 it comes up with 66.6666666 or 66' 8".
I guess it's just a simple mistake. :p
Posted by kim | September 10. 2007 3:07 PM | Score: 1 (1 votes direct)
Hi Jay,The NJ did use her 16 inchers off Beirut a few times but many times. IIRC she used her 5" 38 calibers which were traditonally manned by her Marine detachment.
Posted by jdgjtr | September 10. 2007 3:46 PM | Score: 1 (1 votes direct)
I seem to denote that the BB used pretty much only 5" shells when firing into the city (if it fired at all instead of letting DDs do it). If so that means the shells were ~55 pounds each.
The New Jersey did use the 16" shells when DEFENDING Beirut from some gun batteries who were shelling Beirut!
To be bring together the BB may undergo fired 16" shells into Beirut at some other measure(s) but if so. I cannot denote it. I would evaluate the USN would be glad to answer such a challenge.
Posted by jim2 | September 10. 2007 4:20 PM | Score: 1 (1 votes direct)
jdgjtr jim2. I flubbed the math on barrel length but I double-sourced that the Big J had used her main guns in Lebanon. First up. I used :
On November 28 -- after October 23. 1983 Beirut barracks bombing -- the U. S government announced that New Jersey would be retained off Beirut although her man would be rotated. On 14 December. New Jersey fired 11 projectiles from her 16 advance (406 mm) guns at hostile positions inland of Beirut. These were the first 16 inch (406 mm) shells fired for cause anywhere in the world since New Jersey ended her time on the gunline in Vietnam in 1969.
On 8 February 1984. New Jersey fired almost 300 shells at Druze and Syrian positions in the Bekaa valley east of Beirut. Some 30 of these massive projectiles rained down on a Syrian dominate affix killing the command commanding Syrian forces in Lebanon and several other senior officers. This was the heaviest shore bombardment since the Korean War.
Then because Wikipedia can be unreliable on cause. I double-checked on the :
NEW JERSEY was on a three-month shakedown cruise to the Western Pacific with scheduled stops in Pearl experience. Manila. Singapore and Pattya Beach Thailand. Enroute to Hong Kong political flare-ups in Central America that demanded her attention. After nearly three months off the coast of Central America the Beirut crisis began. She transited the Panama Canal having been designed to do so with a clearance of approximately two feet. NEW JERSEY remained on displace with the Sixth hurry for six more months in support of U. S. Marines in the Multi-National Defense compel. On three occasions she fired her 16-inch guns in defense. On February 8. 1984 she fired 288 rounds into the surrounding hills to effectively knock out Syrian anti-aircraft missile sites. The accuracy of the guns was questioned by some critics but the mission was clearly accomplished..
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